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Feb 07

This post refers to gear that drops in 25-man raids. If you’re looking for a list of gear to get ready for raiding, you might be more interested in my Pre-Raid Holy Paladin Gear List instead.

This post aims to provide a nice ‘wishlist’ of holy pally gear to aim for. Let me say up front that if you think I’m wrong about a piece of gear, that’s fine; I know that balancing spellpower, crit, haste and intellect is a personal juggling act and nobody knows your playstyle better than you do.

A couple of points to note:

a) In my opinion, ideal paladin gear has intellect, crit, haste (within reason; excess haste is useless) and spellpower, and doesn’t waste item budget on less valuable stats like spirit or mp5. This obviously affects the selection of items I consider ‘best in slot’.

b) I won’t be recommending anything lower than mail armor, and even then I won’t be recommending a lot of that. The debate about holy paladins wearing cloth and leather rages on, but for my part: I’m a plate elitist, and I make no bones about recommending plate to other paladins.

So, on with the show.


  1. Faceguard of the Succumbed, from Thaddius (and occasionally Gluth).
  2. Valorous Redemption Headpiece, from Kel’Thuzad. (T7 helm)

Faceguard of the Succumbed is the clear winner here, as it features a meta socket. The T7 helm has the meta socket, but unfortunately trades off the Faceguard’s 61 haste for an unappealing 20 mp5. The Helm of Diminished Pride from Maexxna/Gluth has huge crit and spellpower, but no meta socket and no haste, wasting its itemisation budget on mp5 instead.


  1. Life-Binder’s Locket, from the quest to kill Malygos in Heroic mode.
  2. Cosmic Lights, from Sapphiron.

Despite the mp5, the quest reward necks are excellent. Until you kill 25-man Malygos, however, the drop from Sapphiron is a very strong alternative.


  1. Valorous Redemption Spaulders, from Loatheb or Gluth or purchased with 60 Emblems of Valor. (T7 shoulders)
  2. Elevated Lair Pauldrons, from Malygos.
  3. Epaulets of the Grieving Servant, from Faerlina (and occasionally Gluth).

The Valorous Redemption Spaulders are marginally better than the other shoulders, partly because they’ve got a socket which makes them more flexible, and partly because they contribute towards getting the T7 set bonuses. The Elevated Lair Pauldrons are better than the Epaulets, as an iLevel 226 item, but they waste stats on mp5. They are an upgrade on spellpower compared with the other shoulders, but at this gearing level stacking spellpower is less valuable than stacking int, crit or haste.


  1. Pennant Cloak, from Sartharion with 2 or 3 drakes up.
  2. Shroud of Luminosity, from Grobbulus, Gothik, Heigan and Maexxna.

The Pennant Cloak is far and away the strongest cloak for holy paladins currently in-game, and it’s likely to be hotly contested by other casters as well. In comparison, the Shroud is very accessible, and still a very good piece of kit.


  1. Chestplate of the Great Aspects, from Sartharion.
  2. Valorous Redemption Tunic, from Gluth. (T7 chest)

The Chestplate of the Great Aspects is ahead on every useful stat except Intellect. The T7 chest does have two sockets to the Chestplate’s one, adding greater flexibility, but it just doesn’t hold up.


  1. Bands of Mutual Respect, from Instructor Razuvious (and occasionally Gluth).
  2. Bracers of Liberation, from Grobbulus (and occasionally Gluth).

The Bands, despite being mail, are significantly better than the next-best Bracers, largely thanks to their gem slot. The Abetment Bracers from Gothik/Gluth also have a socket, but they waste itemization budget on mp5 so are generally inferior to both bracers listed here.


  1. Valorous Redemption Gloves, from Sartharion. (T7 gloves)
  2. Rescinding Grips, from Anub’Rekhan (and occasionally Gluth)

The T7 gloves are best in slot here; they beat the Rescinding Grips partly thanks to the gem slot that makes them more flexible, and partly due to their contribution towards the set bonuses. The Rescinding Grips are good alternatives until you get the Tier token, though.


  1. Waistguard of Divine Grace, from Patchwerk (and occasionally Gluth).
  2. Girdle of Recuperation, from Razuvious (and occasionally Gluth).

These two items are all but identical, with interchangeable crit and haste ratings. Pick the one featuring the stat you’re stacking.


  1. Valorous Redemption Greaves, from Thaddius or Gluth, or bought with 75 Emblems of Valor. (T7 legs)
  2. Leggings of Voracious Shadows, from Gluth.

Again, the T7 legs are best in slot; they have marginally more of all the appealing stats, better socket colors, and they’re part of the Tier set. What’s not to love? And best of all, you can buy them with Emblems if the RNG hates you.


  1. Poignant Sabatons, from Noth the Plaguebringer (and occasionally Gluth).

Really, there’s no competition for these at all, and they’re BoE so you can look for them on your AH.


  1. Signet of Manifested Pain, from Kel’Thuzad.
  2. Seized Beauty, from Anub’Rekhan, Patchwerk, Faerlina, Noth and Razuvious.
  3. Band of Channeled Magic, bought with 25 Emblems of Valor.
  4. Titanium Spellshock Ring, crafted by Jewelcrafters.

The Signet from Kel’thuzad is literally the only 25-man ring with all the stats you want and none of the ones you don’t; Seized Beauty is next-best, although the mp5 instead of Haste is something of a waste. The other two rings are reasonable substitutes, although I wouldn’t spend emblems on the purchased ring if you have regular access to Kel’Thuzad.


  1. Illustration of the Dragon Soul, from Sartharion.
  2. Soul of the Dead, from Sapphiron.
  3. Forethought Talisman, from Maexxna, Heigan, Gothik, and Grobbulus.
  4. Darkmoon Card: Greatness, from the Darkmoon Nobles Deck.
  5. Je’Tze’s Bell, BoE world drop.
  6. Embrace of the Spider, from 10-man Maexxna and Gluth.

Trinket selection is a tricky business, as they all have different effects. To be honest, this is one area where I haven’t done enough research to feel comfortable saying that X is better than Y. Input welcome, and I’ll update the post with more guidelines.

Speaking personally, I’m after Illustration of the Dragon Soul and Soul of the Dead.


  1. The Turning Tide, from Kel’Thuzad.
  2. Hammer of the Astral Plane, from 10-man Kel’Thuzad.
  3. Life and Death, from Gothik and Gluth.

The Turning Tide is an amazingly good holy paladin weapon; unfortunately, it’s also amazingly good for mages and warlocks, and you’ll have to beat them off with a stick. In the meantime, the other two weapons are both solid all-rounders with a healthy amount of each desirable attribute.


  1. Voice of Reason, from Kel’Thuzad.
  2. Aegis of Damnation, from 10-man Maexxna and Gluth.

Obviously, Voice of Reason is the stand-out winner here.


  1. Libram of Renewal, bought with 15 Emblems of Heroism.
  2. Libram of Tolerance, from Patchwerk and Gluth.

Libram use tends to be very situational, but the 10-man Libram of Renewal is a more generally useful choice than the 25-man, except in rare situations where you need high throughput more than mana conservation.

The T7 Set Bonus
I’m assuming here that you’re going to want the four-piece Tier 7 set bonus from your Redemption Regalia, since Holy Light is such an integral part of how we heal in WotLK.

The Tier 7 pieces are already best in slot for shoulders, gloves and legs, which means you have to use either the helm or the chest to get your socket bonus. Looking at what you’re giving up (and for comparison’s sake I’ll assume in all cases you’re socketing items with +16 Int yellow gems).

It’s your choice as to which sacrifice you prefer to make.

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Comment by Ambrosyne

Made Saturday, 7 of February , 2009 at 2:10 am

I know I’m a strange, strange paladin who still loves her some mp5 more than most…

…I just find it interesting that it’s still being discounted so heavily in light of the mana regen changes that will be heading our way.

Do you think mp5 will still be a ‘lesser’ stat then?

Comment by kavika

Made Saturday, 7 of February , 2009 at 2:53 pm

You have the t7 shoulders listed as being available for 60 emblems. Is that true? I’m pretty sure it’s the gloves that sell for 60, and the shoulders are only available from tokens.

Comment by Siha

Made Saturday, 7 of February , 2009 at 3:00 pm

No, it’s true. It’s different between 10 mans and 25 mans.
Emblems of Heroism
60 Emblems = T7.10 Gloves
80 Emblems = T7.10 Chest
Emblems of Valor
60 Emblems = T7.25 Shoulders
75 Emblems = T7.25 Legs
Hope that clarifies it for you :)

Comment by Siha

Made Saturday, 7 of February , 2009 at 3:02 pm

And @Ambrosyne – I do think that mp5 will still be lesser, yes. It requires vast amounts of mp5 to provide a meaningful amount of mana regen, given mana pool sizes in WotLK. None of our regen is being _nerfed_, it’s just that Divine Plea will have more of a penalty for using it – but it’ll still return the same amount of mana.

Comment by Fatfish

Made Saturday, 7 of February , 2009 at 7:21 pm

For Rings

I really like Renewal of Life (

I consider it a best in slot (and buyable! no RNG drop)
has way better stats then the Band of Channeled magic.

A big supporter of the site, many guides get linked onto my guild’s Paladin forum. I didnt know about the mail bracers. Shammies watch out!

Comment by Kshatriya

Made Saturday, 7 of February , 2009 at 8:09 pm

A couple of items you might want to consider adding to the list:

Torch of Holy Fire from Kel’Thuzad 25. Granted, it “wastes” points on mp5, and it’s also best in slot for priests (all specs), tree/boomkin druids, and resto/elemental shamans, but for paladins who value spell power over crit it would certainly be a better choice than anything other than The Turning Tide.

Also, since you’re mentioning mail, Malygos 25 drops the Tunic of the Artifact Guardian. Again, while it does have mp5, it beats out the Chestplate of the Great Aspects for crit, intellect, and spell power – and it’s certainly better than the set chest.

Aside from those two omissions, excellent list! Very good job of sifting the real gems out of the mass of dross that seems to be most caster plate these days.

Also, about trinkets: I’ve been unsure how well the Illustration of the Dragon Soul would work for a healer. My shadow priest has the BC-era Darkmoon card that has a similar effect, and I found that even as a dps caster, the buff would often drop in movement-intensive fights. As healers, we’re not only moving, but we’re not casting constantly, so it seems like it would be really easy to let the buff drop – especially since it’s only up for 10 seconds. Sure, we could throw a Holy Shock on someone to refresh it, but I feel like I’m already doing enough buff/debuff-timer-watching that I don’t want to add anything else to that. I’d much rather have around 100 spell power all the time from one of the other trinkets on the list than have more than that some of the time and less the rest of the time.

Comment by Siha

Made Saturday, 7 of February , 2009 at 9:43 pm

@Fatfish – Yeah, you’re probably right in that regard; it’s better than the Band of Channelled Magic. Still significantly inferior to the top two rings, though.
@Kshatriya – Regarding the tunic, I didn’t want to recommend mail for any slot that big, because it’s such a downgrade on armor. You’re certainly right that its stats are tremendously impressive, though.
As for the weapon: I do think the Torch’s lack of crit is a big letdown, and personally I’d prefer the more balanced stats of the other two weapons, but not including it was a bit inconsistent of me, true. My main reason for not including it was that it is best in slot for plenty of other people, and taking it as a stopgap for something better is kind of uncool. That said, if the RNG hates you long-term, the Torch is certainly an option.

Comment by Fatfish

Made Saturday, 7 of February , 2009 at 11:30 pm

I am wondering somewhat on how the recent changes are going to affect crit vs mp5 for mana longevity. I am with Shia on crit. I love getting the crits (along with the associated bonuses) but since the mana game is going to get alot more challenging, i am sure more mp5 is going to show up.

In Original WoW i was a mp5 stacker, i considered it more reliable then crit. But TBC changed my mind, now i am wondering once again.

As for mail vs plate. Its one of those things. Sure, i am betting that mail is better then plate in some categories (though unlike Kshatriya, i like the plate chest better cause haste is a good stat). Sure i could wear cloth/leather and probably have more sp or crit or whatever. But that would ruin one of the reasons i play a paladin. I didn’t choose it because of min/maxing reasons. i wanted to play a tough healer (my pally is a day one pally! Holy all the way too, 3+ years). Its a defining thing of the class in my humble opinion.

Comment by Brangwen

Made Monday, 9 of February , 2009 at 2:20 pm

DAGNAMMIT my comment went away.

Um… trinkets.

Soul of the dead is BiS as far as I can do the math for the “easily” accessible items. The darkmoon card is a close second but its accessibility makes it less desriable.

JCs should not overlook the usefulness of the Sapphire Owl 2 gem slots and lots of int YUM! and 1250 mana return on use (5min CD) good for emergency moments. Use it early use it often.

Also, instead of trying to get the Embrace of the spider, go for the Egg of the mortal essence – the badge equiv. The difference being that the egg is HEALING ONLY, so in a loot prioritisation situation you might get downgraded access to the spider version. Oh yeah, and dont bother with this trinket if your haste gets over 480ish (which isnt as hard as you might think). Elitist Jerks did the math and the soft cap for haste is about 682 IIRC, so the egg/spider passive ability would be wasted and you should look at another trinket to replace it.

Jtzes bell is a great trinket (the boost in mana in longish fights is welcome and will be more welcome with the incoming nerfs) and is right up there with the throughput math.

Um… yeah. I can put more effort into it if you like, Siha?

Comment by Quellious

Made Tuesday, 10 of February , 2009 at 4:10 pm

While I do think that this is an excellent resource for best in slot gear, we should only stack so much haste due to the 15% we get from judging. I usually like to keep about 5-7% haste, as it does allow my Holy Lights to be a 2.0 sec cast and 1.5 talented (with at least one cast). Therefore, after that 5-7%, I stack mp5, and will probably stack more because I won’t be so quick to use DIvine Plea on every CD (at least not in 10 man). By the way, is a great way to find the “best in slot” items with respect to the stats you like to stack.

Comment by Doofy

Made Thursday, 12 of February , 2009 at 3:06 pm

Thanks for this Siha! Good to know most pieces I have are best in slot or top three. Except for weapons. I’m beginning to think Kel’Thuzad does not have anything for casters…

Comment by paladineos

Made Wednesday, 18 of February , 2009 at 2:01 am

My paladin is my second char to 80 and i’ve been holy most of the way, i dinged yesterday and have been looking for a good site to priortise my gear for me and this is great, i have full blue gear from 75+ dungeons and a few blues/epics from hc runs, i am not a big fan of haste playing warlock aswell i love SP and crit i’m not too sure on stam or int, but i also love Mp5. i basically want to know houw much Mp5 is equal to 1 crit, 1 SP, 1 haste, 1 stam and 1 int to try and get my gear right. thank you! ;)

Comment by Kiede

Made Wednesday, 18 of February , 2009 at 5:07 pm

I noticed on the boots, you chose only to post that one pair of boots. i have the Faithful Steel Sabatons from 25 naxx, which don’t have a socket and waste some stats on mp5, but they still have some good crit and spell power. They might be worth posting as a secondary, since you have two for everything else.

Comment by Siha

Made Wednesday, 18 of February , 2009 at 5:27 pm

I generally post ‘alternate’ items for people who suffer longterm under unlucky dice or bad luck with drops. The Poignant Sabatons are BoE, however, so they can be acquired off the average AH with nothing more than a wad of cash. ;-)

Comment by Jeannedarc

Made Wednesday, 25 of February , 2009 at 12:30 am

Mp5 will see drastic nerfs across the board upcoming patch and I honestly have shyed away from mp5 and started my maximum crit + SP build. The mana regen from the hotfix on our DP etc..has already put us in a bad spot for regen. No point in wasting other stats for mp5. Of course balance is always the key, have a little of everything but focus also on a particular stat. It all depends on your play style.

Comment by Sintrix

Made Wednesday, 25 of February , 2009 at 12:56 pm

wouldn’t it be best to go for the Darkmooncard with Soul of the dead so you can spam Holy Light and NOTHING els?(maybe even without needing to use Divine plea every time its up)
i got 3 noble’s cards today so i think ill be going for the darkmoon card and soul of the dead, since i almost already atm can spam HL without the biggest problems, with SoD Id be Nearly there and maybe the darkmoon card will do the difference, who knows, i just can’t wait to get my SoD trinket! :o

Comment by Larry

Made Thursday, 5 of March , 2009 at 2:51 pm

Just found this. Great list. I tend to agree regarding Plate.

Comment by Ellaine

Made Friday, 6 of March , 2009 at 5:37 am

@Kshatriya regarding the trinket. There are several things pallies can do to keep the dragon trinket up and not let it go other than just healing. Dont forget that damage is included in the trinket, so you can also use the time to judge to keep your haste buff up. Also, consecrate, and I believe the shield that you put on the tank every 30 seconds also triggers the trinket (Its either than or beacon, I cant remember which). Since all three i mentioned are instant cast, you can easily do them in a moving fight, and in fact 2 of the 3 you constantly cast anyway, so use the time where you cant be casting during moving to rebuff the tank and rebuff your haste buff. Any really, if you arent casting when you arent moving, then either its a really easy healing fight and you probably dont need your trinket, or you guys have too many healers.

Comment by Townkill

Made Friday, 13 of March , 2009 at 5:50 am

Overall I find this guide to be a very good general guide for holy paladin loot builds. As mentioned though, it really takes the player to decide when or if changes are needed to be made.

I do remember reading a blue post regarding 3.1 to the effects of “Currently when the question of topping off the tank at 50%, or healing a DPS at 20%, the answer is you have the mana to waste so heal them both. But we want to make that more of a decision factor in 3.1″

I for one tend to favor a decent amount of MP5 over straight haste simply because I constantly refresh my judgment, and Embrace of the Spider is constantly procing considering a holy pally is constantly casting. I also can’t afford less mana regen because I run with 3 other healers in a 25 man raid, and in some cases I just cant afford the divine plea 50% healing nerf. It’s just too much for the tanks to take hatefuls from for instance. And even with my current budget of MP5 I normally have to pot, and call for a innervate to make sure my Holy Lights are continuously streaming. Flash just doesn’t do it for cases like patchwerk, or even 3D Sartharion.

All in all, awesome work, but we’ll definitely have to see what more nerfs they’re providing us with when 3.1 comes around. I know they said they wanted to make spirit utilized for holy paladins, but currently I just rarely ever find myself not casting. Then again, maybe we will have to start running 5-6 healers to make up for my incoming nerfs. It’s all about how you and the raid you run with plays when it really comes down to what you need and balancing your stats no doubt.

Comment by Siha

Made Friday, 13 of March , 2009 at 9:11 am

I won’t get into the mp5-vs-Int regen issue here, as I’ve got a post brewing on the issue and I haven’t finished doing the maths on it, so I don’t want to misspeak. :) I do, however, want to ask for the source where they said they wanted to make spirit useful for holy paladins, because I’ve never heard anything like that and that would be a huge shift in paladin gearing. (Especially given that there has not been a single piece of spellpower plate with spirit on it since level 60.)

Comment by Seecrest

Made Saturday, 14 of March , 2009 at 12:18 am

As a paladin healer I would have to disagree with a bit of the preferred itemization away from Mp5. The nerf that was done to DP now makes us lose 50% of our healing for 15 seconds while we recover 25% of our mana pool. Even with 2k unbuffed SP, I notice this loss of health and so does my tank and raid. To avoid needing to use this ability anywhere near as much you NEED to have Mp5 to some degree. Buffed I currently sit at 222 Mp5, and I am shootinmg for at least 260 to 300 without sacrificing too much in the way of any of my other stats. I have also found that a base crit of 30-33% is just fine for holy crit as the benefits tend to taper off after that point. As for trinkets, JC’s DO have the option of using the new Owl trinket. It has 42 intel and 2 sockets that work very well with 2 27 crit jeweler’s gems. Use ability of restoring 2400 or so mana with a 5 min cooldown. not the greatest cooldown time in the world admittedly but it DOES allow you to recover a great deal of mana very rapidly without a loss of healing in the meantime. I have an unbuffed mana pool also of 20300 or so, and even with that I tend to go through my mana pool faster than I would ike to WITH controlled healing habits. My suggestion: place more stock in Mp5, it is still useful to any plate healer, otherwise Blizz wouldn’t have put it there. (excepting the lvl 60 gear, paladins were very confused at that time)

Comment by Jon

Made Thursday, 19 of March , 2009 at 2:40 pm

In regard to the boots and your saying that there is no competition for BiS there are the Eruption-scarred Boots off of Heigan the Unclean. The stats are nearly identical and the only difference is a blue socket over a red. Which can eaily be fixed using a jc dragon’s eye, or a luminous orange gem(9 sp and 8 int). They are mail, but for a holy pally, that has a guild like mine that feels poignant sabatons must always be sold for 5k, (Which i am not prepared to grind to make)they are a decent replacement.

Comment by Nuribaby

Made Thursday, 19 of March , 2009 at 8:25 pm

Regarding boots, what about the Boots of Healing Energies off Maly25? ( I picked them up in anticipation of a mana regen nerf in 3.1, but are they worth using now over Poignant Sabatons if I have those available? According to item levels, they’re best in slot I think.

Comment by bloodkryste

Made Saturday, 21 of March , 2009 at 3:09 am

mp5 is wasted on pallys anymore once you have your crit up, with lower end gear the mp5 comes into play a bit more but with higher end gear you can stack up to 45-50% crit raid buffed and will never run out of mana on any of the current content. And theres enough mana regen in group from shadow priests and all the dif replenishes that it makes up for any amount of MP5 you sac for crit and haste.

Comment by Hagh

Made Sunday, 22 of March , 2009 at 9:28 am

Great guide. Well done. However, I would suggest that the 2nd shield on your list go to Shield of Assimilation. Aside from the small hit to crit, this shield is hands down better then the Aegis of Damnation. The Aegis would be the 3rd best though.

Again, nice work!

Comment by Lestat

Made Monday, 23 of March , 2009 at 3:53 am

I know Ring of the Fated is an Ilvl200 ring, but except for the KT 25-man ring, it beats all others imo.

Comment by Lucianus

Made Thursday, 26 of March , 2009 at 4:32 pm

Personally speaking, the “Boots of Healing Energies” a lvl 226 item is better in my opinion since it has generally higher stats than the Sabatons..

Comment by Melliandra

Made Tuesday, 31 of March , 2009 at 9:12 pm

Commenting as a Mage-Mainchar, Raiding-Paladin-Epic-Alt player on the “beating mages and warlocks with a stick” comment on the weapon choice: According to Rawr, which I always found quite accurate the “Tide” is only minimally better than 2nd choice (Torch) for Holy Paladins (2% or such). And actually with 3.1 and Ulduar after what I read it will be even minimally worse or “same”. For Mages/Warlocks Turning Tide is around 13-15% better than 2nd-best (Life and Death which on this list is also recommended to Paladins) and around 20% better than 3rd best. And even with Ulduar it will be still 2nd-in-slot for Mages/Warlocks, while for Paladins – even ignoring
the legendary – a epic mace with better stats will be around. With my Paladin-alt I would *never* roll against a mage/warlock on the Tide. Rolling away something which is just minimally better and immensly better for the other class… well… I suspect most Holy Paladins just
do not know HOW good the Tide is for Mage/Warlock and that there is not REALLY an alternative to it (and there is no bitterness in this post, my Mage *does* have the Tide, the Holy-Paladin rolled lower on the loot ;-) ). I would not complain about a Pala rolling for the best-in-slot Mage-Ring/Trinket (KT-Ring/Illustration) as it is so much better than 2nd best for Paladin as well. But I *would* on the matter of the “Tide” where it is minimally better and immensely better for mage/lock.

Comment by Siha

Made Tuesday, 31 of March , 2009 at 10:37 pm

The value of mp5 depends largely on your ratios of FoL to HL to HS, since FoL benefits far more from mp5 relative to crit rating than the other spells do. For paladins who rely heavily on HL rather than FoL, TT is definitely more than 2% better than the Torch. It’s also worth noting that the Torch is BIS by a huge margin for healers other than paladins.
So holy paladins can either roll on the Torch, which is not BIS for them and _is_ BIS for all the other healers by a big margin, or roll on TT, which _is_ BIS for them as well as for mages/warlocks. Given that either way, the holy paladin will be competing with someone else for whom the item is BIS, why should we be disallowed from rolling on our own BIS?
(Also bear in mind that the Rawr healadin module values int/mp5 over pure throughput stats like haste, as far as I’ve been able to find out [unless it's been updated recently]. This does not accurately mirror the choices most paladins tend to make in actual play.)

Comment by Melliandra

Made Wednesday, 1 of April , 2009 at 12:44 am

Well, I have to admit I did not have much experience with the Holy Paladin Module of Rawr, but
from experience with other classes I tend to the opinion if Rawr says A and Player says B very
often A is the correct answer. And I am talking of the Beta-version of Rawr which has already been
updated to 3.1.0 changes. I think many Paladins choose the Tide not because of their better value
but because of “Paladins need Crit” and they often evaluate items only over “is there crit on it”
and do not see all stats “together” (which is something Rawr is doing). I doubt it is due to any
sort of theorycrafting, that they prefer the “Tide”. Neither I think do they consider 3.1.0 changes.

And you can put it however
you want – the “Tide” is such an immense buff to Mage/warlocks (and nothing else is even REMOTELY
close to it), that you should not roll for it as another class because Tide is SLIGHTLY better for
your class than 2nd-in-slot. IMHO, of course. And of course there is a fault in Blizzard item
design probably (mostly probably making 2H staffs so incredibly bad that they are usually, if
not having healer stats, considered “healer offspec gear”).

This is not about me not caring about Paladins. I have no objections for Paladins rolling for
the KT ring (which is also an absolute immense buff for Mage/lock), but in case of the ring both
DPS and Healer Paladins profit immensely of it. Just in case of the Tide Theorycrafting says
Mage/Lock profit much more of it.

Just to have a 2nd opinion I checked on, which said: Holy Paladins: Torch 1.4% before
Tide. Mage: Tide 13.3% before Life and Death, Warlock: 11%. Admitted, maxdps is not as accurate
as other theorycrafting options.

Comment by Siha

Made Wednesday, 1 of April , 2009 at 8:39 am

“the “Tide” is such an immense buff to Mage/warlocks that you should not roll for it as another class because Tide is SLIGHTLY better for your class than 2nd-in-slot”
But the 2nd-in-slot is an immense buff to three other classes, which by your logic means holy paladins should not roll on that over the other classes, either. In either case, holy paladins are going to be rolling against someone else for whom the item is a big upgrade. That’s the nature of shared loot.
And regarding 3.1 – paladins have already had our most significant mana regen nerf, in the form of Divine Plea. 3.1 will incorporate two minor changes (the removal of Spiritual Attunement and BoWis/Mana Spring no longer stacking), but for the most part, Holy paladins are already dealing with tightening our mana belts now, unlike the other caster classes, so our decision-making now is much the same as our decision-making will be after the patch. mp5 is really only useful in making sure we don’t go OOM over the long haul; however, with Divine Plea, the JC trinket, Lay on Hands and Replenishment, our mana pools can fluctuate wildly, and having the mana reserves for heavy burst healing Right Now is often more important than being able to chain-cast FoL for ten minutes.

Comment by Melliandra

Made Wednesday, 1 of April , 2009 at 4:02 pm

Remember that Ulduar encounters will consist of fights of a length of 8-10 minutes. At least with the Theorycrafting models I applied this brought up the Torch clearly on top of the Tide. And why roll away an item from a class which will be a HUGE buff for a different class, and not anymore BiS for your own class in some weeks? If you want to take the Tide, which weapon should mages/warlocks take in your opinion? There is nothing else for us… and I am not complaining to paladins rolling on the item… I do not complain on Paladins rolling on caster-relevant items where these items are clearly so much better than second-in-slot for them. But if it is even disputable that it would be BiS right now, and not anymore in Ulduar… I hope you see my point… well basically what I ask for is, before you roll on that item *look at the hard numbers* generated by some theory crafting tool.

Comment by Jmes

Made Thursday, 2 of April , 2009 at 7:08 am

I love the list, but for those of us who aren’t quite at the last 1 or 2 items yet for BiS, it would be great to have the list be a little longer – best 5 or 6 items would be awesome. Thanks for the detailed reasons for “why” as well.

Comment by Vivalabambam

Made Friday, 3 of April , 2009 at 10:45 pm

Melliandra, TTT is the best in slot for pallys. TTT is has more intel for the ose longer fights and the has a crit bonus as well giving .01 % from the extra intel, leaving the pally with only .09% short over the listed second best, but has by far more SP. IDC what your mage or lock wants, using that as an excuse if Q_Qing over pallys rolling on a better item then what they have. If you are still rolling on 25 kel gear, join a different guild, one with a dkp system of some type that no longer rolls with-in guild and can down him every week. If you can’t get into one, means you prob haven’t been around long enough (or you suck too bad) to join an elitist guild like most of us that are actually concerning ourselves over best in slot. Oh btw, i would gladly give up .09% crit for the 461 to 520 SP jump with 6 intel, and 31 to 48 haste increase. On longer fights this will all do me justice. Besides most of us concerned with crit at this point are sitting at 35%+ crit before raid buffs and have other areas to concentrate on after a certian point. (34.99% holy crit at the time of this post in raid gear) I wil always favor crit over something else, but on TTT, I have to look at the bigger picture, otherwise i would stack all green crit gear. Not sure wtf threory crafting models are, or what you are thinking, but my “theory crafting model” says SP will eventually make up for the crit loss due to not needing to spam as many heals or use smaller less expensive ones. without actually posting real numbers, you “theory crafting model” is magecode for “QQ I don’t want pallys beating me out for this item.” Oh, I know I am posting this in vain, cause there isn’t one pally who knows his stuff who is siding with you on this. TTT is the pre 3.1 leet pally healing weapon, stacking all the crucial pally healing stats and staying away from any wasted spirit and mp5.

Comment by Vivalabambam

Made Friday, 3 of April , 2009 at 11:05 pm

Melliandra, You are comparing max dps for Pallys? of course it only raises us less then 2% on a website many of us don’t care about as HEALERS. In uldar I will be doing less then .1% of the overall damage by using my judgement to get the haste increase. STFU about what dps casters need. “tide is a better item in all respects for a pally short of 10 crit rating. Make this a mace and you have no arguement, make it a sword and it never gets d/eed, make it leet and everyone wants it, put mp5 and spirit on it, and lower the other values, and you have an arguement. Until it has wasted abilities, this is a leet HEALER weapon as well as a mage/lock item. Don’t make a max dps arguement when holy pallys will never top 300 dps on a boss fight anyway, otherwise my 3k hps will get compared to your bandaide. stop posting multiples of TTT not being better, cause everypally who has even seen it sees it more like the holy grail then a “marginally better” item. It actually is what I would refer to as EPIC and LEET over anything out there. It is a serious upgrade as opposed to 20 sp here or 10 crit rating there, breakdown goes like this, 59.6 SP (0.6 comes from the 6 intel bonus for those noobs out there reading), 60 mana, 19 haste rating (0.51% haste) and 10 less crit rating (-0.09% crit after intel increase benefit). Seems to me like you lose your argumant no matter which website you got to. Stop QQing over a caster/healer itme getting rolled on by multiple classes. I won’t post on your dps site if you don’t post on our healing sites. Oh btw, your welcome for the heals.

Comment by Melliandra

Made Saturday, 4 of April , 2009 at 10:15 pm

Did you not read what I post? I am NOT comparing maxdps. Rawr examines the equipment of a Paladin based on Burst Healing and Sustaining Healing and simulates a fight based on certain parameters (Raid Buffs, Fight length) using this data. This is how I came to the 2% number. If you are interested in seriously following up the discussion I suggested continueing on email ( And this is NOT about qq’ing of several classes rolling for the same item. I would NOT complain about Paladins rolling for the KT ring as I mentioned… this ring is clearly “better than all” for Paladins as well as for DD casters. And actually owning TTT I do not have any reason to QQ.

Comment by Divinesìn

Made Thursday, 9 of April , 2009 at 1:15 am

I enjoyed the conversation going on between Vivalabambam and Melliandra =/

Comment by Divinesìn

Made Thursday, 9 of April , 2009 at 1:16 am

And a followup the Rawr does maximize MP5 over crit I feel that the crit is way better then the MP5 so Rawr cannot be a comparison because this page is heavy in crit/sp/haste

Comment by Melliandra

Made Thursday, 9 of April , 2009 at 4:46 pm

Hmmm, so your claim is that Rawr values things wrong? It highly wonders me as for other classes I haven’t really seen it go wrong (or if something was wrong – in TBC for some versions a certain trinket was calculated wrongly – it was usually fixed in next version?). Has this claim been discussed at EJ? I would be interested in a link, if yes. Also are you sure that itemization “a paladin should take” will still value crit as much with Ulduar?

Comment by Brick

Made Thursday, 9 of April , 2009 at 7:22 pm

Actually, as has been said before, things are pretty clear.
Holy paladins right now have the luxury of having a best in slot item (TTT) and another one very close to it, although it has a relatively worthless stat compared to others on it (namely, mp5). Now, what you so steadfastly refuse to acknowledge is that these two items – both of them – are as great a leap ahead of anything else available to us than TTT alone is for mages and locks. So, in essence, the luxury of getting two useful weapons, one being BIS, one being pretty near BIS, if one is to follow your line of argumentation, turns into “you as a holy paladin should always be the last to roll either on the torch or the tide because for either item, there are classes/specs that have no substitute as close as that which is theoretically available to you.”

Yeah, you are right, I shall of course roll neither on the TTT or on the torch and use my powerful hammer of the astral plane instead.

No, wait, I’d rather acknowledge that, yes, having more than one weapon available that is BIS or pretty damn close to it IS a luxury, and if the BIS drops, I’ll roll on it and I fully expect fierce competition from the mages and locks. I would go as far as saying that since mp5 is on the torch, which pre-3.1. is inferior to other stats, I won’t roll on it unless no one else still wants it. For the TTT? Not so much.

And, regarding your wild speculation concerning the change in stat prioritization, let me ask you this question: What mathematical conundrum is it that, if crit returns more mana than mp5 in a 5-minute fight, all of a sudden magically makes mp5 more effective in a 10-minute fight? If you would please care to elaborate on that, I am all ears ;)

Comment by Fazulle

Made Friday, 10 of April , 2009 at 8:57 am

I didn’t notice the “Fallout Impervious Tunic” listed for the chest slot.

It has 2 gem slots that you can drop 32 Int worth of gems in, and it has SP, Crit, Haste. A 104 Int total after gemming. I think going T7 Helm and the “Fallout Impervious Tunic” Chest is the way to go.

I never noticed the bracers. Now I have something to run for.

Comment by js

Made Friday, 10 of April , 2009 at 11:23 am

I’d recommend for another boot option

Comment by Melliandra

Made Saturday, 11 of April , 2009 at 11:53 pm

Brick you said above “Holy paladins have a Best-in-slot item and another *very close to it*”. Mages/locks have the same best-in-slot and none *very close to it*. That is all I still comment. I also think though that Blizzard should add a mace with spellpower+crit to the game.

Comment by Holychert

Made Sunday, 12 of April , 2009 at 10:58 am

Um so for the libram the best in slot is definitely the deadly gladiator’s libram that gives 267 additional spell power to flash of light. Which in my opinion flash of light is the most used spell. So like my pally that has 2258 spell power, the libram I have added to my spell power gives my flash of light 2525 spell power. And when your most used healing ability has 2525 spell power, you win :D

Comment by Siha

Made Sunday, 12 of April , 2009 at 11:35 am

@Holychert – a) the Deadly Gladiator’s Libram requires personal and team ratings of 1930, so it’s only available to a tiny proportion of the overall population, so it wouldn’t be helpful advice for most readers.
b) Many paladins have shifted to very heavy Holy Light use, for tank healing, so a FoL libram wouldn’t do them much good.
c) Don’t you find you’re rather lacking in Int/crit/haste, if you’ve stacked SP that heavily?

Comment by rNadom

Made Monday, 13 of April , 2009 at 2:17 am

LoL at Melliandra, looks like someone lost their TTT and unleashing their nerd rage here…
TTT is BiS for mages, warlocks, paladins (3 class)
and Torch is BiS for druids, shamans, priests (3 class)
you see how balance this is? ya blizzard planned it out… (balance LoL)
do you think the other class won’t be QQing like you when a paladin rolls for a weapon that isn’t even BiS for them?
hmmm, 3 class QQing to you rolling on THEIR BiS item, or 2 class QQing to you about rolling on YOUR BiS item (Why are they even QQing in the first place?)… hard decision
its easier to find good dps rather then good healers anyways
TTT is BiS for paladins… and no i don’t like being sub-par, so i m gonna roll for it…

Comment by Zero

Made Saturday, 25 of April , 2009 at 6:26 pm

The sea known as stupidity is bottomless, as illustrated by some of the “finer” poster here…

I have TT, and I love it. I don’t think I’ll take the Torch any day for my holy pally. 2.4k SP AND 38% crit? That makes my day.

I hate QQing, unless its justified. Here, it just shows how someone who doesn’t really play a class that extensively comments on it.

Comment by Beerrunner

Made Friday, 1 of May , 2009 at 12:58 am

After doing a lot of the fights in Uldular, I am wondering how this list will change. I picked up a few paices that have the mp5, and just beacuse of the stats on them they upped my crit, but at a lose to haste. Any ideas on what we should e rolling on? I am this list is great and has helped me topped healing charts easily.

Comment by Maxxanath

Made Tuesday, 12 of May , 2009 at 11:07 pm

What do you think of the neckpiece from 10 man Thorim?

Comment by Melliandra

Made Tuesday, 26 of May , 2009 at 5:02 pm

@rNadom: No, I won TTT first time it dropped for my guild. I already had it when I wrote my comments here. My comment was primarily based on examination of Rawr Data. Especially on the difference between 1st and 2nd best item for said classes. And BTW also play a Paladin in alt-25-man-raids.

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