Comments on: Patch 3.0: The (Holy) Talents http://www.bananashoulders.com/2008/10/21/patch-30-the-talents/ Sun, 25 Oct 2009 18:57:33 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: Siha http://www.bananashoulders.com/2008/10/21/patch-30-the-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-4753 Siha Thu, 23 Oct 2008 03:43:57 +0000 http://www.bananashoulders.com/?p=319#comment-4753 For me, the value in Imp LoH is not in the improved CD - because as you say, there's not much difference between 16 minutes and 20 minutes - but in the armor buff. With 2 points that's a 50% armor bonus for 15 seconds; that's a significant amount of mitigation against an incoming burst, and can be applied strategically to trigger this effect. . I agree, though; if you're just using LoH as an oh shit button, or a mana restore button, and you're not using (or don't need to use) the armor buff strategically, then it's certainly a waste of talent points. For me, the value in Imp LoH is not in the improved CD – because as you say, there’s not much difference between 16 minutes and 20 minutes – but in the armor buff. With 2 points that’s a 50% armor bonus for 15 seconds; that’s a significant amount of mitigation against an incoming burst, and can be applied strategically to trigger this effect.
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I agree, though; if you’re just using LoH as an oh shit button, or a mana restore button, and you’re not using (or don’t need to use) the armor buff strategically, then it’s certainly a waste of talent points.

]]> By: aaron http://www.bananashoulders.com/2008/10/21/patch-30-the-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-4751 aaron Thu, 23 Oct 2008 02:18:50 +0000 http://www.bananashoulders.com/?p=319#comment-4751 The talk about imp LoH has got me thinking though, I'll respec and use the points somewhere else. Not sure why I put them there in the first place, I guess to fool around with the new ability. I've used it twice so far in raids, and once by accident due to different key bindings (oops). But neither of those would have been affected by the 16/20 min cooldown. The points could definitely be used better elsewhere. The talk about imp LoH has got me thinking though, I’ll respec and use the points somewhere else. Not sure why I put them there in the first place, I guess to fool around with the new ability. I’ve used it twice so far in raids, and once by accident due to different key bindings (oops). But neither of those would have been affected by the 16/20 min cooldown.
The points could definitely be used better elsewhere.

]]> By: Siha http://www.bananashoulders.com/2008/10/21/patch-30-the-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-4750 Siha Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:59:07 +0000 http://www.bananashoulders.com/?p=319#comment-4750 @Ryukyu - I agree with the others; if you try and do everything with one set, you'll be half-assed at everything. Two sets is almost necessary. . @Valyre - I agree that in some environments, certain talents are going to be advantageous, if not downright necessary. However, the vast majority of raiders didn't get into Sunwell - didn't get anywhere near Sunwell - and what works, in terms of a gearing and casting strategy - for Sunwell is not the same as what works for other raid zones, let alone 5-mans. Let's face it, Sunwell paladins shouldn't need me to tell them how to spec or gear or play anyway ;) . I do agree, though, that Beacon is a lot more nifty than people give it credit for, and I'm pretty sure it's going to be a permanent staple in my healing spec, unless my guild specifically needs me to go for Replenishment. @Ryukyu – I agree with the others; if you try and do everything with one set, you’ll be half-assed at everything. Two sets is almost necessary.
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@Valyre – I agree that in some environments, certain talents are going to be advantageous, if not downright necessary. However, the vast majority of raiders didn’t get into Sunwell – didn’t get anywhere near Sunwell – and what works, in terms of a gearing and casting strategy – for Sunwell is not the same as what works for other raid zones, let alone 5-mans. Let’s face it, Sunwell paladins shouldn’t need me to tell them how to spec or gear or play anyway ;)
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I do agree, though, that Beacon is a lot more nifty than people give it credit for, and I’m pretty sure it’s going to be a permanent staple in my healing spec, unless my guild specifically needs me to go for Replenishment.

]]> By: aaron http://www.bananashoulders.com/2008/10/21/patch-30-the-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-4746 aaron Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:35:46 +0000 http://www.bananashoulders.com/?p=319#comment-4746 Multiple sets are definitely the norm, I have four sets on me at all times: Crit, Haste, MP5, and Grinding. Another three in the bank: Prot, Ret and PvP. I think holy/ret could work, but as Valyre said: you would be half and half of each, losing the great talents each has just a little further into the tree, and gimping your performance for both. If I was putting together a raid I'd be more inclined to bring a strong healer and a strong dps rather than a 50/50. Multiple sets are definitely the norm, I have four sets on me at all times: Crit, Haste, MP5, and Grinding. Another three in the bank: Prot, Ret and PvP.

I think holy/ret could work, but as Valyre said: you would be half and half of each, losing the great talents each has just a little further into the tree, and gimping your performance for both.

If I was putting together a raid I’d be more inclined to bring a strong healer and a strong dps rather than a 50/50.

]]> By: Valyre http://www.bananashoulders.com/2008/10/21/patch-30-the-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-4738 Valyre Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:59:18 +0000 http://www.bananashoulders.com/?p=319#comment-4738 @Ryuku I think multiple sets are the norm. I would rather be a good healer and a good dps than mediocre at both. Resist sets aren't going away, either, per the info at BlizzCon. I currently carry around a full healing set, prot set, and shadow resist set, plus various arcane resist and mp5 pieces. Luckily I don't tank for raids or I'd also have a fire resist set. It's pretty much a non-issue, though, because I have a set management addon and have room in my bank to dump stuff if I need room for farming. @Ryuku

I think multiple sets are the norm. I would rather be a good healer and a good dps than mediocre at both. Resist sets aren’t going away, either, per the info at BlizzCon.

I currently carry around a full healing set, prot set, and shadow resist set, plus various arcane resist and mp5 pieces. Luckily I don’t tank for raids or I’d also have a fire resist set.

It’s pretty much a non-issue, though, because I have a set management addon and have room in my bank to dump stuff if I need room for farming.

]]> By: Valyre http://www.bananashoulders.com/2008/10/21/patch-30-the-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-4737 Valyre Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:52:28 +0000 http://www.bananashoulders.com/?p=319#comment-4737 I still don't think Imp LoH is worth anything. At this point, with the appropriate glyphs, LoH's is merely a mana regen tool for me to use when everything else is on cool down. I can't think of a fight where we've needed the extra armor on anyone. If you're learning a fight, you don't want to be relying on a 20 min CD ability to win, either. lol My first test of our post-patch abilities came on KJ in SWP. The bottom line is judging every 20 sec and Bacon every 30 sec isn't hard. You just need to set up your addons to monitor the timers. Also, I did the math on Bacon for that particular fight. (Bacon on OT + raid healing) It's extremely efficient compared to even Flash when it comes to hp/mana - like twice as much. Also, if you're doing a "Stand here and don't move" fight, bacon is awesome because you can still heal your target even if they're beyond 40 yds. You're not really doing yourself a favor by skipping it imo. Similarialy, SWP is all about haste and if you're going to judge at all, you need the range extending talent. There is a noticable difference with 10% haste. I watched a healadin without the talent get into some sticky situations and waste a lot of time running up to whack the boss between heals. I still don’t think Imp LoH is worth anything. At this point, with the appropriate glyphs, LoH’s is merely a mana regen tool for me to use when everything else is on cool down. I can’t think of a fight where we’ve needed the extra armor on anyone. If you’re learning a fight, you don’t want to be relying on a 20 min CD ability to win, either. lol

My first test of our post-patch abilities came on KJ in SWP. The bottom line is judging every 20 sec and Bacon every 30 sec isn’t hard. You just need to set up your addons to monitor the timers. Also, I did the math on Bacon for that particular fight. (Bacon on OT + raid healing) It’s extremely efficient compared to even Flash when it comes to hp/mana – like twice as much. Also, if you’re doing a “Stand here and don’t move” fight, bacon is awesome because you can still heal your target even if they’re beyond 40 yds. You’re not really doing yourself a favor by skipping it imo.

Similarialy, SWP is all about haste and if you’re going to judge at all, you need the range extending talent. There is a noticable difference with 10% haste. I watched a healadin without the talent get into some sticky situations and waste a lot of time running up to whack the boss between heals.

]]> By: Ryukyu http://www.bananashoulders.com/2008/10/21/patch-30-the-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-4718 Ryukyu Wed, 22 Oct 2008 02:19:50 +0000 http://www.bananashoulders.com/?p=319#comment-4718 I know this is centered around Holy builds, but does anyone have any suggestions for a Holy/Ret hybrid healing build? I know I have to go far enough into the Ret tree for Sheath, but that is all I am sure about. I know I will be able to dual spec, but I really don't want to have to tote around two sets of gear if I can avoid it. That is my reasoning anyway in case you were wondering why I would want to do a Holy/Ret build. I know this is centered around Holy builds, but does anyone have any suggestions for a Holy/Ret hybrid healing build? I know I have to go far enough into the Ret tree for Sheath, but that is all I am sure about. I know I will be able to dual spec, but I really don’t want to have to tote around two sets of gear if I can avoid it. That is my reasoning anyway in case you were wondering why I would want to do a Holy/Ret build.

]]> By: Siha http://www.bananashoulders.com/2008/10/21/patch-30-the-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-4715 Siha Wed, 22 Oct 2008 00:17:22 +0000 http://www.bananashoulders.com/?p=319#comment-4715 @Kamzaki - I'd like to see a link to the build you suggest, but off the top of my head that sounds pretty viable. Certainly worth experimenting with! . @Christopher - I don't think LoH is something you can work into a rotation anyway, as it's on a 20 minute cooldown. That's a very long rotation! The reason I put the point(s) into it is not for use as an emergency 'oh crap' button, but so that you can use it proactively to give the tank the armor buff against bosses where they need all the armor they can get. That said, your build looks good for the circumstances you detail; you've obviously built it to synergise with the other pallies you play with. . @Matthias - the point is, we still don't really know how we're going to play at 80 in challenging content, and if we're spam machines at 80 the way we are at 70, the improved 'reaction speed' of haste is much less important than the overall number of spells we're getting out in a 60 second period - and if that's true, then the duration of JotP vs the duration of judgements is important. Now that Judging takes a GCD, it may be problematic in frantic fights to take time off healing to judge. . @aaron - well, we don't know if we'll be able to judge all the time. They wanted us to judge all the time in TBC, too, and most fights still didn't permit that (although WotLK is looking a lot more viable in that regard). But if you ask where points could be 'better spent' than in JotP, well, in the build I suggested I put them into Aura Mastery, Imp BoW, Imp LoH, and a floating spare point into 1/3 Blessed Life. JotP costs a hell of a lot for a relatively small boost, and you can do a lot of other things with those five talent points if you don't want it. However, like I said I'm reserving judgement (har) on JotP until I've tried it in raid content and I've done some solid theorycrafting on it. @Kamzaki – I’d like to see a link to the build you suggest, but off the top of my head that sounds pretty viable. Certainly worth experimenting with!
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@Christopher – I don’t think LoH is something you can work into a rotation anyway, as it’s on a 20 minute cooldown. That’s a very long rotation! The reason I put the point(s) into it is not for use as an emergency ‘oh crap’ button, but so that you can use it proactively to give the tank the armor buff against bosses where they need all the armor they can get. That said, your build looks good for the circumstances you detail; you’ve obviously built it to synergise with the other pallies you play with.
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@Matthias – the point is, we still don’t really know how we’re going to play at 80 in challenging content, and if we’re spam machines at 80 the way we are at 70, the improved ‘reaction speed’ of haste is much less important than the overall number of spells we’re getting out in a 60 second period – and if that’s true, then the duration of JotP vs the duration of judgements is important. Now that Judging takes a GCD, it may be problematic in frantic fights to take time off healing to judge.
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@aaron – well, we don’t know if we’ll be able to judge all the time. They wanted us to judge all the time in TBC, too, and most fights still didn’t permit that (although WotLK is looking a lot more viable in that regard). But if you ask where points could be ‘better spent’ than in JotP, well, in the build I suggested I put them into Aura Mastery, Imp BoW, Imp LoH, and a floating spare point into 1/3 Blessed Life. JotP costs a hell of a lot for a relatively small boost, and you can do a lot of other things with those five talent points if you don’t want it. However, like I said I’m reserving judgement (har) on JotP until I’ve tried it in raid content and I’ve done some solid theorycrafting on it.

]]> By: aaron http://www.bananashoulders.com/2008/10/21/patch-30-the-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-4710 aaron Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:15:02 +0000 http://www.bananashoulders.com/?p=319#comment-4710 I'm with you Mathias, JotP is an amazing talent. Worth every point and then some. I can't believe anyone would consider skipping it. And where exactly would those points be 'better' spent? You are judging all the time anyway, so might as well grab a 10% (15% after WotLK launches) haste buff. The only difference in my build to yours Mathias is I didn't spec for Infusion of Light, will wait and see how useful it is after the expansion when it affects FoL as well. I’m with you Mathias, JotP is an amazing talent. Worth every point and then some. I can’t believe anyone would consider skipping it. And where exactly would those points be ‘better’ spent? You are judging all the time anyway, so might as well grab a 10% (15% after WotLK launches) haste buff.
The only difference in my build to yours Mathias is I didn’t spec for Infusion of Light, will wait and see how useful it is after the expansion when it affects FoL as well.

]]> By: Mathias http://www.bananashoulders.com/2008/10/21/patch-30-the-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-4682 Mathias Mon, 20 Oct 2008 23:54:30 +0000 http://www.bananashoulders.com/?p=319#comment-4682 Sorry, linked the wrong Build. It was the one i made with BoK included. This is the real one: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sxAzgRzhVuMxRtZVc Sorry, linked the wrong Build. It was the one i made with BoK included.
This is the real one:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sxAzgRzhVuMxRtZVc

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